Madden Goups SIM Rules for Madden 12 - What u think?

After a debate with Sgibs on our chat about the validity of SIM rules - i wantd to re-evaluate our newly created rules that we plan to ue for Madden 12 release...

I dont want this to turn into a debate of FREESTYLE vs SIM (thats a topic for another day and imo will never be solved! lol) - So for the matter of this discussion, i just ask you to look at our rules and the validity from a SIM league perspective
The Madden Group is an organization of 350 members who play EXCLUSIVLY FANTASY DRAFT SIM ONLINE FRANCHISE... Our members demand rules that promote a realistic NFL simulation aka SIM experience) - I know this is not ever 100% possible - but our rules try to make our games as close possible to an authentic NFL experience...

Like all SIM leagues, we have rules that set limits on what is consider "acceptable" play within our league... In post last years i discussed my rules in this section - and i learned something from that duscussion (and thank MS members for that contribution) - The Madden Group had too many rules...

We have since simplified our rule book into a code of LESS THAN 8 SIMPLE RULES!

i want to know what you think of our NEW rules - let me know if there are rules you think should be added for Madden 12... Tell me if there is a rule that shouldnt be there, a rule that is weak or possibly poorly written...

I am making this post here because MS members are not shy about posting their opinions - and i want to hear it all - tHE GOOD, THE BAD AND UGLY!!! - so let me have it fellas - i can take the criticism! Besides, ultimately it only makes us stronger!


Madden Groups Less than 8 Simple Rules:

1) PUNT RULE - You must punt when the ball on 4th down if it is in your end...
unlesss:
a) your behind in the 4th quarter...
b) your behind 3 scores or more anytime...
note: when recieving a punt, you are NOT ALLOWED to take an extra blocker off the "D-Line" and bring him in a better blocking angle position... (if you wnt to bring a playerback beside the kicker, move the players over-top of the Kick coverage team's gunners...)

2) QB is PROHIBITED from doing UNREALISTICLY LONG DROP BACKS AND SPRINT OUTS (on pass plays that are designed for being thrown from a standard pocket)... A QB cannot drop back farther than 12 yards from the Line of scrimage... The QB cannot move laterally (as a preplanned sprint out) more than 3 yards outside of the pocket in pass plays that are designed to be thrown from a standard pocket...

note - the LATERAL movement does not apply to ON THE FLY QB scrambles - but the distanced dropped back in the pocket applies regardless of pressure and scrambling ability...


3) You must PASS RUSH a minimum of 2 players EVERY PLAY (that means no "***" defense)... You are prohibited from moving a Defensive Linemen off the Line of Scrimage (to a traditional LB starting position) before the snap... If you want to play with less DL and more LBs or DBs than call a defense that has such a strategy implemented ...

note: DE that are given a "contain" responsibility are considered pass rushers...


4) Players played out of position must be REASONABLE and SIM like... (the most obvious example is that u cant play Ofensive players on defense and vice versa) unless in an EMERGENCY SITUATION where injuries and fatigies demands this switch from a depth chart perspective... The acceptable changes of positions are as follows:

HB to FB cant have a speed greater than 89...
HB to WR they cannot be in the depth chart higher than #3 position.
TE to FB cant have a speed greater than 89...
TE to SLOT, SPLIT-END or FLANKER - must be an "isnide reciever"
OT to TE, G or C
G to OT or C
C to G or OT

DE to OLB or DT
DT to DE
OLB to DE or MLB
MLB to OLB
SS to FS, CB OR OLB cant be greater than 88 speed @ OLB...
FS to SS or CB
CB to FS or SS


5) Mix your plays up...We all have our "go to" plays - aka MONEY PLAYS but dont over use any one play... The exception being BASIC FUNDEMENTAL PLAYS that are "main stays" of all ofenses (example - dives, offtackle or sweeps... and blitz counter passes) - if a defense dictates that a bliitz counter pass be used b/c the defense continues to BLITZ - the offense is not responsible to mix it up as his play call is actually dictated by what the defnese calls...


6) The use of known GLITCHES and ILLEGAL BLITZES (aka NANO BLITZES) blitzes is prohibited... Examples of such things are Spy Glitch, Motion Glitch or running your LBi circlespresnap soi heas fiull speed when the ballis snapped (maing acceleration incosequential)... These Kind of plays will be updated on an ongoing basis (new glitches and nanos present themselves all the time) - we will provide specific written discription of each and where possible video footage of the play...

note - there are many BLITZES that may appear as "NANO " blitzes to some - while others see them sound strategy... A blitz will be determined ILLEGAL if there is no reasonable easy way to defend the blitz (after falling victim to a BLITZ - a player should easily be able to find its counter on subsequent plays) - iof this counter is not relatively obviosu and easy to implement - than its an ILLEGAL BLITZ....


7) U can only manually move (joystick move) 1 player that rushes the QB - U can shift as many pass rushers u want using the `shift` system with L1 or R1... player that manually move more than 1 player that pass rush the QB, could be tryn to confuse the a.i. of the Offensive Line - so this practice is outlawed!


*** If you want to learn more about the Madden Group & possibly join 1 of our Fantasy draft LGs (that have a track record of success) - check us out at:

http://maddengroup.forumotions.net/

1 thing that Sgibs mentioned in the chat was that its clear in Madden 11 that MAN 2 MAN defense (with the right personel) is far superior than zone defense (even with the best zone defenders) - and because of this MAN to MAN defense is used more dominantly (and this is true within the Madden Group as well)... - and in the NFL zone play vs Man to MAN defense proportions are a lot closer...

His point was that because of this - Should a ISM league limit the amount you can use Man to MAN defense in an effort to bring the game closer SIM?

i think this is a vcalid question but after thikin about it - the use of Man o MAn is more of a function of players in ZONE defenses not racting like the should - nevertheles -limiting such a fundemenatl part of the game would be difficult to implement - and sometimes you have to just pick your battles - and although making a rule limiting man to man defense would bring the game closer to SIM -it would be hugely difficult to implement -so sometimes we have just have to lice with imperfections in the game- and this is an example of this situation....

I am happy to hear that zone defense has been fixed for Madden 12 and will be far more effective than it is now - and this make this SIM compromise incosequential for Madden 12...

I know how to avoid all this confusion... Don't play sim.. Lol jk. I'm not a sim player though, so I don't know much about sim ball. But I think the QB should be able to have a little more movement then specified in your rules.

Strayous wrote:

I know how to avoid all this confusion... Don't play sim.. Lol jk. I'm not a sim player though, so I don't know much about sim ball. But I think the QB should be able to have a little more movement then specified in your rules.

the idea behind our QBovement rule...

2) QB is PROHIBITED from doing UNREALISTICLY LONG DROP BACKS AND SPRINT OUTS (on pass plays that are designed for being thrown from a standard pocket)... A QB cannot drop back farther than 12 yards from the Line of scrimage... The QB cannot move laterally (as a preplanned sprint out) more than 3 yards outside of the pocket in pass plays that are designed to be thrown from a standard pocket...

how many times have u seen a QB take the snap - AND INSTANTLY RUN TO THE SIDELINE ABOUT 14 YARDS BEHIND THE LOS? (i know it happens all the time in the lobbies) - this makes the PASS RUSH completely INCONSEQUENTIAL and give the wr 5-8 seconds to run their routes - AND EVEN THE WORST WR CAN SHAKE THE BEST COVERAGE IF THEY ARE GIVEN 5-8 SECONDS! and this fact is even heightened if the offense use playmaker routes.. No way a WR ever has 5-8 seconds to run a route...

The fact is - THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE NFL - The DL would get there a lot faster than they do in this game - not to mention the QBs throwing ability would be lesson seeing he had to throw the ball that far back from LOS ( farther away from his target) and often its athrow across his body which goes against all basic QB fundementals... - U DOINT SEE THIS IN THE NFL BECAUSE IT WOULD NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL - so why should it be allowed in our SIM Online franchise where we are tryn to replicate play in the NFL?

GREENERRRR wrote:

Strayous wrote:

I know how to avoid all this confusion... Don't play sim.. Lol jk. I'm not a sim player though, so I don't know much about sim ball. But I think the QB should be able to have a little more movement then specified in your rules.

the idea behind our QBovement rule...

2) QB is PROHIBITED from doing UNREALISTICLY LONG DROP BACKS AND SPRINT OUTS (on pass plays that are designed for being thrown from a standard pocket)... A QB cannot drop back farther than 12 yards from the Line of scrimage... The QB cannot move laterally (as a preplanned sprint out) more than 3 yards outside of the pocket in pass plays that are designed to be thrown from a standard pocket...

how many times have u seen a QB take the snap - AND INSTANTLY RUN TO THE SIDELINE ABOUT 14 YARDS BEHIND THE LOS? (i know it happens all the time in the lobbies) - this makes the PASS RUSH completely INCONSEQUENTIAL and give the wr 5-8 seconds to run their routes - AND EVEN THE WORST WR CAN SHAKE THE BEST COVERAGE IF THEY ARE GIVEN 5-8 SECONDS! and this fact is even heightened if the offense use playmaker routes.. No way a WR ever has 5-8 seconds to run a route...

The fact is - THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE NFL - The DL would get there a lot faster than they do in this game - not to mention the QBs throwing ability would be lesson seeing he had to throw the ball that far back from LOS ( farther away from his target) and often its athrow across his body which goes against all basic QB fundementals... - U DOINT SEE THIS IN THE NFL BECAUSE IT WOULD NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL - so why should it be allowed in our SIM Online franchise where we are tryn to replicate play in the NFL?

Yeah but the thing is, if a QB does roll out 14 yards, either spy a slot CB, or send a slot CB blitz. The QB will be toast. There are ways to stop all that cheesy stuff.

After re-reading rule #2 - perhaps a caveat allowing exceptions to this rule on DESIGNED QB ROLL/SPRINT OUTS or WAGGLES should be allowed - but this QB movement must be a designed PART OF THE PLAY - and the extreme of running to the sideline would still be in force nevertheless; moving the throwing position of the QB is a fundemntal and acceptable tactic of football at any level...

The issue is guys that do such things to the extereme on plays that are not even designed to be used that way.,..;

Strayous wrote:

GREENERRRR wrote:

Strayous wrote:

I know how to avoid all this confusion... Don't play sim.. Lol jk. I'm not a sim player though, so I don't know much about sim ball. But I think the QB should be able to have a little more movement then specified in your rules.

the idea behind our QBovement rule...

2) QB is PROHIBITED from doing UNREALISTICLY LONG DROP BACKS AND SPRINT OUTS (on pass plays that are designed for being thrown from a standard pocket)... A QB cannot drop back farther than 12 yards from the Line of scrimage... The QB cannot move laterally (as a preplanned sprint out) more than 3 yards outside of the pocket in pass plays that are designed to be thrown from a standard pocket...

how many times have u seen a QB take the snap - AND INSTANTLY RUN TO THE SIDELINE ABOUT 14 YARDS BEHIND THE LOS? (i know it happens all the time in the lobbies) - this makes the PASS RUSH completely INCONSEQUENTIAL and give the wr 5-8 seconds to run their routes - AND EVEN THE WORST WR CAN SHAKE THE BEST COVERAGE IF THEY ARE GIVEN 5-8 SECONDS! and this fact is even heightened if the offense use playmaker routes.. No way a WR ever has 5-8 seconds to run a route...

The fact is - THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE NFL - The DL would get there a lot faster than they do in this game - not to mention the QBs throwing ability would be lesson seeing he had to throw the ball that far back from LOS ( farther away from his target) and often its athrow across his body which goes against all basic QB fundementals... - U DOINT SEE THIS IN THE NFL BECAUSE IT WOULD NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL - so why should it be allowed in our SIM Online franchise where we are tryn to replicate play in the NFL?

Yeah but the thing is, if a QB does roll out 14 yards, either spy a slot CB, or send a slot CB blitz. The QB will be toast. There are ways to stop all that cheesy stuff.

My friend this a common breakdown between how FREESTYLE and SIM guys view Madden... To SIM guys, the fact that an exploit can be stopped or countered is of no consequence... What is of concern is that the play wouldnt happen in th NFL and as no basis in reality

If an exploit like this wasnt successful (through superior gamne programming) - GUYS WOULDNT EVEN TRY IT and their would be no need for a rule... But in this case it can be successful - and sure their are counters to it -but the play shouldnt occur at all in a SIM game therefore the defense sholdnt have to anticipate such a tactic - This allows the defense to focus on other possibilities and attack the offense differently (bcause u know u dont have to defend vs his tactic b/c its against the rules)

Whoever wrote these rules must have never seen Aaron Rodgers or Michael Vick roll the underneath zones to create unique windows by moving laterally (not scrambling).

ZAN wrote:

Whoever wrote these rules must have never seen Aaron Rodgers or Michael Vick roll the underneath zones to create unique windows by moving laterally (not scrambling).

moving loaterally to create a better passing angle is allowed - but specifically snapping the nall AND INSTANTLY RUNNING TO THE EDGE OF THE SIDELINE (as descibe above is not) - and is the reason for the rule - mybe we should make the lateral movement length a lil farther - this could be a good suggestion which i am picking up from you indirectly...

Ulitmately what happens is you get a "wanna be lawyer" who isnt really a SIM dedicated player but wants to be in our Lgs (b/c they are active LGs) - and they look for "angles" around our rules - those are players we dont wat and are not a good fit for us... we orefer ghuys that WANT to play undfer SIM rules- and this exercie i am tryn to do in this thread is to come up with thebest setof rules we can...

But moving lateraly in effort ot create a better throing lane or t give u an extra second to throw the ball is a lot different than the exploit descibed above - totally 2 different things - 1 is realistic and the other isnt...

Respect the man and his rules

apreaciate the shout out Sgibs - but even the freestyler guys that hve posted (who are against any rules) have shown me possible issuess... the 3 yard lateral limitations o sidways movementof the QB is a lil tight... - planned sprint out and the QB moving for a better throwing lane / angle can be a reason to move outside of the pocket greater than 3 yards - so the post has helped - and that regard we are benefiting from the discussion...

Excellent!

In the end I see any rule as a limitation o the creativity of the players. The rules take both sides and find the lowest common denominator. Does this hurt or help leauges?

Carry on!

sgibs wrote:

Excellent!

In the end I see any rule as a limitation o the creativity of the players. The rules take both sides and find the lowest common denominator. Does this hurt or help leauges?

Carry on!

but thats where so calle SIM guys and FREESTYLE plyers differ - FRESTYLE guys have the "anything goes mentality" - they do whatever they can to be sucessful - regardless if its something that would happen in the NFL or not- Which is great in the context of playing a video game - U find the best way to win - and let the reality of whether or not that sort of play actually happen in the NFL be damned - BUT THATS NOW SIM GUYS SEE IT...

Propoents of SIM play, play under a set of agreed upon rules that define what is considered acceptable play and what is not... - ideally you should be able to say "just play SIM" and not need rules - but what is considered SIM by 1 person may not be considered SIM by another - so rules are needed to clearly define the expectation of SIM play...

I know this is not for everyone - but there are many guys who love playing in LGs where they know that they wont face a 4th and 8 gamble on their opponents 22 yard line in the 1st possession of the game!!!

And sure being CREATIVE is a big part of the game - BUT CREATIVITY must be limited to the realms of realism... Without these limits Madden moves away from being an NFL simulation - to a Cartoon style video game (like they releasedd last year - Madden NFL Arcade)...

but the SIM vs FREESTYLE debate is an old one - and wasnt the reason for this thread - i ws just tryn to make the best possible SIM rules for Madden 12 - and gratefully we have already improvced on that by changing rule #2 to allow for a slighly wider qb roll out of the pocket (from side to side) - so keep the suggestions coming - its much appreaciated...

Madden is a video game right? So you're gonna play it like any other video game and do what you need to win. That's how I view it, that's why I don't at sim. There are effective ways to stop almost everything cheesy.

Strayous wrote:

Madden is a video game right? So you're gonna play it like any other video game and do what you need to win. That's how I view it, that's why I don't at sim. There are effective ways to stop almost everything cheesy.

yes madden is a video game which is an NFL simulation... Guys who play SIM see the fact that its an NFL Simulation being more critical than it being a video game - sure SIM players could dedicate time to finding creative (but unrealistc ways) to be successful or ways to circumvent our our rules - BUT THATS NOT THE POINT! SIM playes look to be successful at Madden while implementing plays that have a basis in reality and actually COULD happen on Sundays!

Besides - SIM players arent concerned if a play could be "stopped" - thats not the point... The fact is that they shouldnt face a play that would NEVER occur on Sunday! So understanding this - they dont have to concern themselves with "stopping the CHZ" - they can dedicate themselves to finding ways to b successful that are plausible and have the fundemental aspects of FOOTBALL BASICS that have made football the fantastic game that it is....

When guys play Madden and try to find exploits or unrealistic ways of being successful that moves Madden away from an NFL simulation and closer to Madden 10's NFL Arcade - if you just want to play a video game that is "for fun" - (that has no basis in reality) - thats cool - maybe look up the arcade version....

GREENERRRR wrote:

Strayous wrote:

Madden is a video game right? So you're gonna play it like any other video game and do what you need to win. That's how I view it, that's why I don't at sim. There are effective ways to stop almost everything cheesy.

When guys play Madden and try to find exploits or unrealistic ways of being successful that moves Madden away from an NFL simulation and closer to Madden 10's NFL Arcade - if you just want to play a video game that is "for fun" - (that has no basis in reality) - thats cool - maybe look up the arcade version....

I used to be a sim player but converted to freestyle, and through the whole process my main objective or goal never changed, THAT WAS TO WIN OR TRY TO WIN EVERY GAME!

That being said i think your (greenerrrr) sim rules are good for a sim league except the rolling out of the QB rule, wich you have already said you may change...

Due to blitzing and overload blitzing you will need to roll out of the pocket more than 3 yards alot, vick, rodgers, big ben, cutler, tebow just to name a few, even colt mccoy has alot of roll out pass plays for him in the browns playbook, all the aforementioned QBs roll out alot in real life! Sim rules usually are based on by how they play the game on sunday! (trying to simulate that style as best as they can)

Now i feel we all pay $60 a pop for the game and we are all entitled to play it however we want, EA caters to the 'Football Fan" not the sim player or freestyle player! So individually its each persons prerogative to play wich ever way they want!

a few reasons i left the sim style world was

1. the game has alot of random stuff happen fumbles, dropped catches so forth, so i want to have as much control as i can on every play and situation, Example 3rd and 6 on my 30 yard line and a WR drops a wide open pass, i feel like if i wanna go for it on 4th and 6 the next play its to make up for the random not so sim play that happened to me previously...sim rules just limit the game even more (imo)

2. every sim player always has a different interpretation of what sim is! i played in sim leagues and won super bowls and never broke any rules and they kept creating more and more rules and said audibling and hot routes used in excess was a game exploit, so now instead of arguing over the web and thru text messages i can just play freestyle and say GG at the end of the game, the guy with the best playcalling and more knowledge of the game, or better scheme still usually wins either way...

while sim isnt for me, i do think your rules for a sim league are pretty solid though, they seem standard to all the ones i played in, except for the QB roll out one....

BuckNut4eva wrote:

GREENERRRR wrote:

Strayous wrote:

Madden is a video game right? So you're gonna play it like any other video game and do what you need to win. That's how I view it, that's why I don't at sim. There are effective ways to stop almost everything cheesy.

When guys play Madden and try to find exploits or unrealistic ways of being successful that moves Madden away from an NFL simulation and closer to Madden 10's NFL Arcade - if you just want to play a video game that is "for fun" - (that has no basis in reality) - thats cool - maybe look up the arcade version....

I used to be a sim player but converted to freestyle, and through the whole process my main objective or goal never changed, THAT WAS TO WIN OR TRY TO WIN EVERY GAME!

That being said i think your (greenerrrr) sim rules are good for a sim league except the rolling out of the QB rule, wich you have already said you may change...

Due to blitzing and overload blitzing you will need to roll out of the pocket more than 3 yards alot, vick, rodgers, big ben, cutler, tebow just to name a few, even colt mccoy has alot of roll out pass plays for him in the browns playbook, all the aforementioned QBs roll out alot in real life! Sim rules usually are based on by how they play the game on sunday! (trying to simulate that style as best as they can)

Now i feel we all pay $60 a pop for the game and we are all entitled to play it however we want, EA caters to the 'Football Fan" not the sim player or freestyle player! So individually its each persons prerogative to play wich ever way they want!

a few reasons i left the sim style world was

1. the game has alot of random stuff happen fumbles, dropped catches so forth, so i want to have as much control as i can on every play and situation, Example 3rd and 6 on my 30 yard line and a WR drops a wide open pass, i feel like if i wanna go for it on 4th and 6 the next play its to make up for the random not so sim play that happened to me previously...sim rules just limit the game even more (imo)

2. every sim player always has a different interpretation of what sim is! i played in sim leagues and won super bowls and never broke any rules and they kept creating more and more rules and said audibling and hot routes used in excess was a game exploit, so now instead of arguing over the web and thru text messages i can just play freestyle and say GG at the end of the game, the guy with the best playcalling and more knowledge of the game, or better scheme still usually wins either way...

while sim isnt for me, i do think your rules for a sim league are pretty solid though, they seem standard to all the ones i played in, except for the QB roll out one....

yes the rollout rule has to be more flexible - and i see that - improving that rule has come form this discussion - TY MADDEN BIBLE MEMBERS!!!

and your right abput people having the right to choose how they play - an thats exactly why the Ps3 Madden Group was formed (so a bunch of us "SIM guys" could play together and not have to worry about a freestyler playn against us)... - Our league makes it clear what the rules are before people join (we dont want freestylers in our Lg - and generally they wont like playing here...) - Having said that, we have a few Freesyle players that are willing to follow our rules during our LG games because they want to be in a quality league - and i respect them greatly for being able to do this....

As far as your experience goes in SIM leagues THATS TOO BAD!- You clearly werent in the best league - SIM rules are not designed to "ham strng" a specific player or to BENEFIT the style of play of the commish - IF YOUR LEAGUE DOES THIS - DONT WASTE YOUR TIME - FIND ANOTHER! It is clear that the leadership is more concerned sbout giving themselves an advantage than they are with COMING UP WITH THE BEST RULES to promote SIM play....

i hope the fact that i am partcipating in this exercise (settings myself up for "shots" by freestyle players LOL) shows the motivation of the rules at the ps3 Madden Group - WE ARE JUST LOOKING FOR THE BEST POSSIBLE SIM RULES AS WE CAN DEVELOP...